Rule 62 Radio
Rule 62 Radio is a place where stories of hope and healing are shared. The content you will find here focuses on recovery through the 12 steps as they were written in The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. No ads. No intros. No editing except to protect anonymity. Just honest recovery and messages of hope from people who know what it means to be hopeless.
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The things I've learned while making these recordings have had a big impact on my life and I sincerely hope others get something valuable from it as well. Thanks for listening!
Rule 62 Radio
Step 12 - Phoenix House Oct 2, 2026
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The Phoenix House Speaker Series has rotating guests talk about their experience with each of the 12 steps found in the Big Book and the 12 & 12.
The messages I post to Rule 62 Radio have changed my life and I hope they will have an impact on you as well.
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All the speakers you will hear agreed to be recorded to help carry the message of recovery. If you hear a speaker using any full names or breaking anonymity in some other form please email me about it. It's helpful if you can provide the episode title and time in the episode where that happens. I do my best to edit out things like that but I'm a father of four and this is a labor of love that I do in my free time so things make it past me sometimes.
You know, it's always an honor to speak in front of a group of people, especially when nobody's first saying, Will the defendant please rise? Hi everybody, I'm John. I'm an alcoholic. By the grace of God, in the 12 steps of this fellowship, it has not been necessary for me to take a drink of the liquid drug alcohol or any other mind-altering substance since August 9th of 1992. For that, I will be forever grateful because the nature of my life is such that I live a life I never dreamed was possible. And it's not the stuff, it's the relationship, it's the friendships, it's the being able to put your head on the pillow without the hamster wheel spinning up. I mean, that's the peace that I've gotten through this program. And you all taught me how to live. I didn't know how to live until you I came into these rooms, and you all taught me how to live. You know, I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, and I was always kind of a law and order kind of guy. You know, I'm a rules follower. You know, don't touch the, you know, don't touch the object. I won't touch the object. I was a good student. I was a pretty decent athlete. You know, I did all the right things. And so I uh went on with my merry way, and I didn't touch a drink of liquor until I was legal to do so. In Cleveland, when I grew up, 18 was the drinking age. So on my 18th birthday, I took my driver's license to the liquor store, bought a case of beer, got a couple of buddies, and and we did it right. Because I got drunk, I got sick, I got caught, and I got in trouble. And if I never said anything more about my drinking career, that's what happened. And it wasn't that I was always in that much trouble, but I was trouble was happening when I was there. And so I started drinking my senior year of high school, and you know, I like to say I experimented in high school. By the time I went to college, it became full-blown research. You know, I uh I learned pretty early on that I could uh make these deals, make these trades, that I could trade an A for a C so I could go to the bar four and five times a night. And I learned I could trade a pass for a no pass so I could go to the frat party. And after four years and $60,000 worth of higher education, I learned I could trade a diploma for my next kegger. And see, I didn't know I was making these kinds of trades. So by the time I'm 22, I'm a full-blown alcoholic, I'm an everyday drinker. You know, by that time, yeah, I'm hooked. And I didn't realize it because the chains of alcoholism are so subtle they can't be felt until they're too strong to be broken. And I think that's important, so I'm gonna repeat it. The chains of alcoholism are so subtle, they cannot be felt until they're too strong to be broken. I didn't know a different way of living. At some point, drinking wasn't an option, it was a necessity. Now, some of my best drinking stories occurred when I was in college because I was young, dumb, indestructible. You know, we would drink till we were full up to here, squirt some food coloring down my throat, and when we puked, we'd puke in a nice arc in the colors of the rainbow. Yeah, we call that the rainbow. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, and and I learned to mix and match there. Now, don't get me wrong. If we have a table here and it's got some liquor and some weed and some blow and some pills, nobody's going home with any leftovers. But the first thing I'm grabbing is the liquor. That's my drug of choice. That's what I'm always going to gravitate to. And so that's what I did. You know, there's a Latin phrase, uh, vini viti vci. You know, you know, in uh mine was I came, I saw I drink, you know. That was the that's the way I operated. So I muddled through school until I got four years in and was about three classes short, and didn't quite make it. And so after four years and sixty thousand dollars worth of higher education, I came home with my tail between my legs and I did what I was told to do go get a job. And so I went out and I got a job. And the first job I had was working in a shoe store. So let's think about this. Four years, $60,000 worth of higher education, and I've become Al Bundy. And I found me my very own Peg. She had long hair, wide shoulders, and a big mouth. And baby, I was in love. Yeah. In fact, I was in so much love that we spent 358 glorious days of wedded bliss. Yeah, we stayed uh married just short of a uh a year, and then I was transferred here to Indianapolis, and she went back to Cleveland, and I give her credit that was a grown-up decision at a time that neither one of us were making grown-up decisions. I wasn't ready to be a husband, I wasn't ready to be responsible. I wasn't we were two kids trying to play grown-up, and we sucked at it. So she went home, I stayed here, and began a downward spiral that over the next three years I would get fired from or quit just before I got fired from nine jobs. Over the next three years, I said I had seven alcohol-related automobile accidents, none of which were my fault. If you hadn't have parked on the street, I probably wouldn't have hit you. I'm just saying. I managed to alienate almost all my friends except one. He wouldn't leave. I was avoiding my family because uh I do come from a long but distinguished line of unsuccessful drinkers, and I didn't want them seeing what I was doing. And I managed to find myself living in my car in the parking lot of the place I used to live in, looking at the stuff I used to own because all my possessions were sold. But see, I didn't have a problem, I was just having a run of bad luck. See, you don't understand, I'm different. You know, I'm smarter than this. And so I lived in my car for about 10 days, and then I got somebody to uh let me move in with them. But the end was near. Yeah, I had gotten arrested for the third time. Uh I'm three and all against the criminal justice system, by the way. But I had gotten arrested for the third time a couple months earlier, and I knew something had to change. So I I did the things that we're supposed to do. You know, I'm trying to slow down. I'll just drink on the weekends. You know, well, I didn't know Wednesday was still part of the weekend. I know I'll just drink beer. Well, I put on 35 pounds, but I didn't get any more sober. I know I'll drink wine, you know, and I became this wine expert. Well, my puke got a lot sweeter smelling, but I didn't get any more sober. And I and I want to tell you, I was a puker. I I well I drink till I'm full up to here, purge, and let's keep going. I know I'll find something that's so vile tasting, at least it'll slow me down. I I'll drink gin. That's like drinking rat poison. When I quit drinking, gin on ice was my favorite drink. I'm adaptable. So so now I'm now I that didn't work. And more and more events are happening. And I'm getting in more and more jackpots. And now I'm you know, uh I'm getting to a point where I'm afraid because you know, I keep waking up in spots. You know, I wake up in Hoboken, New Jersey, and I wake up in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and well, I wake up in jail too. So that's and now I'm having these blackouts. I don't remember. You know, I'd I flew out to Minneapolis, Minnesota, came home and I'm on an airplane coming home, and I remembered going to work on Thursday, and today's Sunday, and I'm looking around, and I have a ticket in my pocket, and I look in Minneapolis. What the hell was I doing in Minneapolis, Minnesota? Exactly when was that a good idea? So now I'm afraid. So now I'm trying to stop. And I'm good at stopping. I want to tell you, I'm great at stopping. It's the staying stopped part that I have a problem with, and I couldn't stay stopped. And so it just wasn't working anymore. I moved into this guy's apartment, and he was gone for the weekend. And I remember it was August 8th of 1992, and I'm coming off a four-day bender, and I'm laying in bed, and you know, you have those kind of headaches that you move your eyes just a little bit, and it feels like the back of your head is exploding. Yeah. And I'm like, oh God. But I have to go to the bathroom. My bladder's saying, get up. So, you know, I do the hungover shuffle, you know, where the feet never quite get off the ground. And I managed to get to the bathroom and I turn on the light and the mirror is right there. And I'm looking at myself in that mirror and at the top of my lungs, I just screamed. I effing hate you. I effing hate you. And I slid over to that toilet and I took that pee, and it just felt like everything I was, all my hopes, all my dreams, all my ambitions were draining out of my body into the toilet. And when I was done, I felt absolutely empty and alone. I don't know if anybody else ever felt like that before. But I just was done. I couldn't live like this anymore. I had one friend left, and I had made a men's retreat, and it was nice. Uh, it was a retreat where men of the parish uh did some exercises and talked about God working in their lives. And I made a friend there, and all I ever wanted to be was cool. So when they asked me, what do you want to accomplish over the next six months as we prepared to put it on for the next group? I thought I had a cool answer. I said, I'd like to go to mass on a more consistent basis. I didn't mean that I would. I would just like to. Well, this bastard thought I was serious. And for the next 18 months, he called me every week, what mass are you going to? So he was the friend that wouldn't leave. So, okay. I went to mass and he wasn't there. And everybody left, and I'm sitting there. And they turned the lights off, and I'm sitting there. And I said the prayers that I think every alcoholic who wants to find recovery eventually says at one point, please, God, help me. No grand bargains, no, if you do this, then that I'll do that. Just help me. I went home, I drank everything I had left in the house, and my last drink ended at 11:55 p.m., August 8th, 1992. I remember looking at the clock. And I knew I can't do this anymore. I white-knuckled on Monday, and on Tuesday, I went to my first meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. I went to the Tough Love group in Noblesville, Indiana. I think it's the best AA meeting on the planet. And if you don't think your home group's the best AA meeting on the planet, change your home group. And I met a guy there. Yeah. I walked in and he's finishing up setting up the tables. And he goes, uh, you new here? I said, yeah. He said, uh, is this your first time at a meeting? I said, yeah. He said, oh, cool. And he calls to another guy and says, Hey, Walt, come on over here. Meet my new friend. What's your name again? John. Meet my new friend John. And so Walt came over and he shook my hand and he told me a little bit about himself. And now more people are coming. And he says, you know, you want a cup of coffee? And I said, I'd love a cup of coffee. And he brought me a half a cup of coffee. And I thought, man, these guys know about this drink and stuff. All right. You know, I'm shaking like a leaf over here. He brings me a full cup and I'm wearing it. A little time after that, another guy walks in. I know this guy. He's one of my father's sponsees. And he looks at me. What are you doing here? So I have a problem with my drinking. I'd like to do something about it. Really, what are you doing here? I have a problem with my drinking. I'd like to do something about it. No kidding? No kidding. I've cleaned that up quite a bit. So we went outside. He said, what's going on? And I told him what was going on. He goes, You're in the right spot place. I'm your new sponsor. Now, before we get all warm and fuzzy, I have rules. Rules? You're going to call me every day. I wouldn't call my mother every day. You're going to call me every day. The first time I didn't call him, 5.30 the next morning, he called me. Like, uh, Carol, what time is it? Oh, it's 5:30 in the morning, John. I'm like, why are you calling me at 5:30? Well, you had your chance to call me last night on your time. I thought I'd call you this morning on my time. Never missed again. He said, I go to a lot of meetings. You're going to go to these meetings with me. So I can hear what you're hearing and we can talk about it. You're going to get down on your knees at least twice a day and you're going to pray. And you're going to get busy working these steps. And if you don't want to do any one of those four things, go waste somebody else's time. I want to tell you, I was done. If he had said, I want you to go to high at high noon, go downtown to Monument Circle, hanging from that monument as a carrot at noon. I want you to get on your knees and pray to that carrot. I wouldn't have liked it. But I would have done it. I couldn't stand me another minute. And so we got busy. We got real busy. Now, we try to complicate the crap out of stuff that isn't complicated. So I want you to stop me when I get to the complicated part. Because step one is nothing more than a statement of fact. I'm either powerless over alcohol or I'm not. And if I'm not, what the heck am I doing here on a Saturday night? I use plane in a couple hours. If yes, see step two. If no, keep drinking. Step two is nothing more than a statement of fact. Came to believe that a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity. Didn't say I walked in with an abundance of faith. It says, if I work the rest of these propositions, that somewhere along the line I will come to believe. Yes or no. If yes, see step three. If no, try some controlled drinking. Step three, made a decision to turn my will and my life, my thoughts and my actions over to the care of God as I understand God. And really, what I'm making a decision about is really more of a commitment. I'm committing to myself, I'm committing to my God, I'm committing to my sponsor, and I'm committing to my home group that I'm going to work these steps to the best of my ability one day at a time. And I like that commitment. That speaks to me. That commitment. I'm good at commitment. I'm good at obligation. And so I committed to work these steps. Step four. You know, I'm taking a look at me. Took a fearless and searching moral inventory of myself. Alright. I'm looking at me. I'm going to write down on these pieces of paper. I'm going to write down all people, places, and institutions I'm pissed off at. Then I'm going to go start at the top again. Why am I pissed off at them? Then I'm going to start again at the top and go down. What part of me does it affect? And then the fourth column, what was my role in it? And then I'm going to do the same thing for my fears. And I want to tell you. I don't know who they are. I'm not even sure why I'm afraid of them. Maybe because they'll find out. I don't know what they're going to find out, though. But I'm afraid of them. So wrote down my resentments, my fears, and my sexual misconduct, and that list was disappointingly short, so I put harms to others. And what I found on those pages was me. An angry young man pissed off at the world, afraid of his own shadow. That was me. And I could see that. And since I wrote it, I still had to own it. So okay, I took that four step. Now, I'm gonna give you all a little insider AA info here. You don't get this kind of information at every AA meeting. But when you say you're working on your four step, we all know. We all know. We all know that you haven't found the paper or the pencil. We know. Don't worry. Every damn one of us have said the same thing. Working on it. So Harold said, What are you doing on Monday? I said, No, go to a meeting with you. Why? He said, Come early. I said, You want to go to dinner first? He said, No, bring your four step. We'll do your fifth step. Damn, now I got to do my four step. So, you know, I struggled with this. You know, I I want to tell you, I I had to do it twice because the first time I came out looking pretty good. But I looked at it, I can't sell this to me. I let's do it the right way. And so I took that four step over to him and we started talking. And and he talked, I lit, or I talked, he listened, and he did what good sponsors do. Uh huh. Mm-hmm. Yeah, we do that. I finally said something that interested him, and he told me one of his stories. And when he was done with his stories, I was scratching my head, going, Damn, is that screwed up or what? By his third, I'm waving the white flag. And he did that to make me feel comfortable, to make me to let me know there's nothing I could tell him that was going to surprise or shock him. And it was a conversation. I think it's the easiest thing I've ever done in this program, by the way. We put a lot of fear into this because there's a lot of the unknown. And it's probably the easiest thing we do. It's just a conversation with my sponsor. You know, I was born and raised Roman Catholic. I've been going to confession since I was seven-year-old. I'm just going to confession with my sponsor. And when we were done, this angry, hard-edged man looked at me and said, Have you knowingly left anything out? And I could honestly answer that I had not knowingly left anything out. He stood up, he gave me a hug, he told me he loved me. And I got it. I got it. This unconditional love we give one alcoholic to another. Man, I I've I felt so good. I didn't work another step for the next year and a half. Yes. Step six. Humbly asked him to remove my shortcomings. What are my shortcomings? It's those things that I identified in the fourth step. How do I, you know, how how am I entirely ready to have him remove those shortcomings? Or defects of character? Quit practicing them. If drinking was my biggest defect of character, my desire to drink didn't leave until after I stopped drinking. I like to talk about people when they're not there because, well, I don't want to hurt their feelings. How do I quit gossiping? I quit talking about people. How do I quit lying? Because I always had a very casual relationship with the truth. How do I quit lying? I quit I quit telling stories that aren't true. I quit practicing these things. And the more that I stopped doing them, the more I wanted to stop doing and start changing. So step eight, I'm gonna make a list. All the people I had harmed. It's a list. If I did you harm, you go on the list. So I made a complete and thorough list. Step nine, made direct amends wherever possible, except when to do so or injure them or others. So I had to start making amends. That means directly, face to face. When I went through my eight-step list, you know, we split it out. Now, later, never. And I knew my ex-wife was gonna be never. I I knew she was gonna be never. And he said, Harold said, This is the first one you're gonna do. Now, this is the woman I broke three telephones just hanging up. For you younger folks, we used to have the wall of the phone hanging on the wall. It was so satisfying when you hung up. I broke three telephones just hanging up with her. She lived in Cleveland. I made arrangements to see her, and I went out and did what I was supposed to do. I told her that I wasn't the husband I could have been, should have been, wanted to be, that I had been selfish and self-centered, and I didn't do her right. And I told her that I was never there for you when we were married. But if there's ever a time you need me, I will be there for you. When I left, she gave me a hug. She wished me well and she meant it. I gave her a hug. I wished her well and I meant it. It was a perfect closure on that relationship. A few years later, she died. How would I have felt today knowing I could have made that amend and didn't? What the hell are we waiting for? You know. When do we want to get better? Because we have certain promises in these nine steps, and they occur while we're doing these nine steps. You know, I wanted to get better. In the forward to the first edition, you know, it tells me exactly what this is about. We have Alcoholics Anonymous, our more than 100 men and women who have recovered past tense from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body to show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book. I wanted that recovered. No, I'm recovered today, conditional on my spiritual condition. I wanted that. And so I began chasing sobriety as actively and as passionately as I chased my last drink. If you were in Atlanta and I could get a hold of you, I went and drove to Atlanta. I drove to Milwaukee, I drove to Chicago, I drove to Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati, wherever you were, I made the event. And I did it to the best of my ability. And an amazing thing happened. I started feeling good about me. I'm participating in my recovery. I'm fixing the things that I broke. You know. If I'm in a shallow pit and I have all this garbage piled on me, four and five remove some of the garbage. Eight and nine remove some of the garbage. And now I'm left with nothing blocking me in the sunlight of the spirit. It's pretty cool. You know, I started being able to sleep. I started being able to be real with people. I started not being afraid of everything. It was awesome. Step 10 is four through nine on a daily basis. I'm keeping I'm keeping that pit cleaned out so that nothing's blocking me from God. Step 11 is the answer to three. In three, I made a decision in 11. I seek God, asking only for the knowledge of his will for me and the power to carry that out. Meaning God's not Santa Claus. I'm seeking out God's will for me and praying for the strength to follow the path he's laid out. And 12 is giving it away as openly and as freely as it was given to me. Nobody stopped me here. I guess it wasn't that complicated. You know, we do these things and we continue to put them into our lives, and miracles happen. And if you've been around for a while, you've seen those miracles. You know, there's a guy in my home group. Honest to goodness, when he walked in, he couldn't string four words together in a sentence. About a year and a half ago, he gave a step presentation at a big men's retreat. And he was great. Buddy of mine, look at each other, and we have tears coming down our cheeks, going, Don't tell me there's no God. We watch the lights come on in the eyes of our fellows. It's a miracle. We take pieces of human garbage and we come productive citizens. It's a miracle. We take the biggest liars, and they're the most honest people we know. We take the most selfish people we've ever met, and they become the most selfless people in my life. We live in a program of miracles, and we fail to look around and see these miracles that happen to us every day. Oh, we call them circumstance or happenstance or coincidence. They're minor miracles in which God chooses to remain anonymous. If we're looking for the miracle, we generally will find it. Just like if we're looking for God, we generally find God. You know, God revealed Himself to me one day. He was in disguise. He was he was he looked like a six-year-old girl with red curly hair. And his her mother was in front of me at the 12 items or last checkout island I uh register, and she was sitting there with 18 items, and I know that because I counted them three freaking times. Now she can't, now she's looking for coupons, and I'm being me, you know. Yeah, doesn't know how to count. Maybe we should send her back to school. Now we're looking for the checkbook. Oh, for the love of God! And God, disguised as a six-year-old little girl with red curly hair, looks at me with this brilliant smile and says, My mommy's having a rough day. John, you ain't that important. You just are not that important. Yeah, I do a lot of talks. I go into schools, I go into treatment facilities, I do a lot of talks. And people ask me all the time, how does this thing really work? And my smartest answer is just fine, thank you. But how it really works is let's say I have uh a drink right here. Now, I take one step away, I can still grab that drink. I take two steps away, I can grab that drink. I take three steps away, I have to reach a little bit, but I can still grab that drink. But if you put 12 steps between me and that drink, throw in a home group, throw in some sponsors, throw in a couple of people that give a damn about me, I'm a hell of a lot farther away from that drink than I've ever been. And I'm promising you now, I am not going to go back to my flippin' hate you. I'm not doing it. I remember it like it was yesterday. I can give this thing away. Oh, this sponsee of mine. Oh my god, he's just a wine fest. I don't have to answer the phone. You know, I don't have to make coffee or volunteer. You know, I've been around for 30-some years. You know, I don't have to do any of that. You know, I don't have to really sponsor people. You know, I don't really have to pray every day, do I? And all of a sudden I'm back here with the drink in front of me, defenseless against that drink. I'm not going back to I flip and hate you. I'm doing what it needs to be done on a daily basis to stay sober. And I'm at a point in my life where I want the whole deal. I want that whole deal. I want to be rocketed into the fourth dimension. This is really important to me. This is a passion for me because I've been given a gift I never dreamed possible. I take a guy to a meeting twice a week. He can't walk. I go to uh the senior living center, I pick him up. And people are always saying, Oh, you're so good for doing this. I'm like, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. See, I've been given an opportunity to act as an instrument of God in that man's life. How do I not answer the call? Look at what's happened to me. I have a beautiful wife. I've been married to her for 31 and a half years. And she still says she loves me. You know, if she had killed me the first time she thought about it, she'd be out by now. I'm just saying. You say that the other way, it just sounds creepy. I have two exceptional women that are daughters for daughters. They are just exceptional women. They married exceptional men. My youngest is gonna make me a grandfather for the first time. December 17th. Stella Joan. My mother's mother was Stella, and my mother is Joan. I'm pretty sure my mom will stop crying about it sometime next week. I have so many blessings. How do I not answer the call? That's what we try to do. We give this away as openly and as freely as it was given to us. You know, how does this work then? Reminds me of the story of the man in the pit. Now, I didn't make this up, so if you've heard it before, please don't stop me. I like the way I tell it. Man's walking down the street, and a big pit opens up, and he falls into this pit, and he's calling for help for hours and hours and hours, and nobody will help him. Finally, he sees a doctor walking by the edge of the pit and he goes, Hey Doc, I'm down here in the pit. Can you help me out? And the doctor looks down over the edge, writes out a prescription, and drops it down and walks on. Hours and hours and hours go by. He sees a priest walking around the edge of the pit. Hey, Padre, can you help me out? I'm down here in the pit. And the priest looks over the edge and gives him a blessing and then walks on. Hours and hours and hours go by, and he says a guy he knows walking along the outside of that pit, and he says, Hey Fred, I'm down here in the pit. Can you help me out? And his buddy jumps into the pit with him. And he says, Are you crazy, man? Now we're both stuck down here. And his buddy said, Yeah, but what you don't understand. I've been here before. I know the way out. One alcoholic working with another, one woman working with another woman, one man working with another man, guiding us down the path, not asking us to do anything that they aren't doing themselves. If you want what we have, you'll do what we do. And that forward to the first edition, precisely we follow the directions precisely. And what makes this work is I do it the same way as Chad, and I do it the same way as Bill, and I do it the same way as Dave. They walk this path before me, they blaze the trail. All I have to do is hold their hand and follow. That's how this thing works. This is what keeps this program alive in my life. Because I owe the responsibility to the next guy. And I take him by the hand and I walk him through the steps, and I relive those steps and walk through them with him all over again. And now I'm renewed and ready to go. You know, this is a wonderful way of life. And if you want what I have, come join us. If you want to feel a new freedom, welcome home. If you want to experience true happiness, welcome home. If you want to know serenity and peace, welcome home. If you want to become useful in all your things, welcome home. And if you want to live without fear, we have a place for you. Welcome home. My name's John. I'm an alcoholic. I don't care. Who knows it as long as John never forgets it. Thank you.